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16 July 2007 @ 04:38 pm
The White Rabbit  
Apologies that this is a day late!





episode

The White Rabbit

summary

Dehydrated, sleep-deprived, and chasing hallucinations of his deceased father, Jack is forced to make a decision on whether he will become the leader of his fellow survivors. Flashbacks show Jack searching for his father in Australia.

discuss
  • Do you think Jack wants to be the leader of the group?
  • Lost & all of its Alice in Wonderland references

Schedule can be found HERE.

**Note: Using subject lines in your comments is always helpful!**

 
 
 
shinbones on July 16th, 2007 09:20 pm (UTC)
first comment?
I don't really know if Jack wants to be leader. I'm sure he feels some sort of responsibility because everybody thinks he should be.
the laundry on the hill: ' symptomaticschmiss on July 16th, 2007 09:20 pm (UTC)
Light.... comma... sticks
Am I first? Whoohoo, haha. Ummm this episode is okay I guess. It doesn't seem like a whole lot happens besides backstory exposition.

I wish Christian Shephard had been alive in Australia so he could be second guessing everything Jack did on the beach. YOU CALL THAT A SPEECH BOY??? YOU CALL THAT TREATING A WOUND?? THATS WHY YOU DON'T HAVE WHAT IT TAKES!!!!

I think Jack told himself he didn't want to be a leader, and maybe he didn't at first, but after a point he obviously did. Just look at how he flips the hell out at Locke all the time later in the series. He has a that leadership style where he just... really doesn't like being questioned.

If Lost is Alice in Wonderland, does that make the monster the White Rabbit? Is Jack Alice (lolz) or Ben because he ♥ bunnies? I wonder if the symbolism means anything or if the writers are just running down the list of 100 Greatest Books and throwing stuff in. :P
the laundry on the hill: ' the song i've been trying to singschmiss on July 16th, 2007 09:21 pm (UTC)
Re: Light.... comma... sticks
NO I WAS SECOND! Damn you shinbones! ;__;
shinbones on July 16th, 2007 09:26 pm (UTC)
Re: Light.... comma... sticks
i'm sorry! :'(
the laundry on the hill: ' SAYID'S ONLY WEAKNESS.schmiss on July 16th, 2007 09:30 pm (UTC)
Re: Light.... comma... sticks
It's okay. I just wanted to say "Damn you (somebody)!".
shinbones on July 16th, 2007 09:40 pm (UTC)
Re: Light.... comma... sticks
;)
cech yourself before you wreck yourself: nervous Carlokrysteener on July 16th, 2007 09:36 pm (UTC)
Jack
I don't think he wants to be the leader at this point but he can't help feeling so much responsibility for everyone.

This episode as a whole was just alright. Lots of build up for stuff to come though.
shinbones on July 16th, 2007 09:41 pm (UTC)
Re: Jack
yeah that's what i was trying to say.
beetlebume on July 16th, 2007 10:10 pm (UTC)
I love the pic you picked for the episode description. I always giggle in that scene.
allolaliaallolalia on July 16th, 2007 10:19 pm (UTC)
I don't think Jack wants to be the leader. He has trouble with authority/leader figures (like his father...), and he doesn't want to become something that he's not comfortable with. Also, he's been having a rough time lately; he can barely take responsibility for himself, let alone 40-some others.

I love Alice in Wonderland references. There should be more of them. Now I want to read it again.

I also love that Jack was crying in this episode.

lover all alone: J2: idk my bff Jensen?invisiblelove on July 16th, 2007 10:31 pm (UTC)
Incontinuity?? (re: Charlie)
Did anyone else notice Charlie's "I don't swim" comment at the beginning of the episode when he comes for Jack about Boone?

SPOILERS ABOUT S3 FINALE!!!





Wasn't he suppossedly a great swimmer and that's why he explained to Jack that he could go down to the underwater Dharma station? I wonder if the writers just forgot they had Charlie say that. Did the writers make a...*GASP* MISTAKE??! ;)
@Bluegrassbabe3foxylovesme on July 16th, 2007 10:35 pm (UTC)
Re: Incontinuity?? (re: Charlie)
I think they did. There's been alot of speculation about that.

Or maybe Boone was not worth saving/taking a risk for/ for Charlie whereas Claire and Aaron were?
the laundry on the hill: ' splendorschmiss on July 16th, 2007 10:48 pm (UTC)
Re: Incontinuity?? (re: Charlie)
I think he was high and just making up an excuse.
lover all alone: Pashiinvisiblelove on July 16th, 2007 11:16 pm (UTC)
Re: Incontinuity?? (re: Charlie)
*SNORT* That is a very real possibility ;)
what do we say to the god of death?: brightinsomniawatcher on July 16th, 2007 11:43 pm (UTC)
Re: Incontinuity?? (re: Charlie)
I noticed that as well, maybe the writers of LOST are NOT as holy/perfect as everyone seems to think? :O
Outside the door, she took four more.: [LOST] IN UR FRIDGE LOCKE!heyt on July 17th, 2007 01:57 am (UTC)
Re: Incontinuity?? (re: Charlie)
I don't think it was an incontinuity because he was supposed to drown saving Claire. He only said that he was a great swimmer to Jack so that he'd be able to fulfill his destiny or something.
lostndomseyeslostndomseyes on July 17th, 2007 03:22 am (UTC)
Re: Incontinuity?? (re: Charlie)
I don't think they made a mistake.

Charlie lied when he said he was a great swimmer. That was his only chance of Jack letting him go. That's why Desmond asked later 'How long can you really hold your breath' or something like that.

About the comment during this epie. Charlie said 'I don't swim' not 'I can't swim' There's a difference.

For example: I can swim, just not very well. LoL. If I need to swim from one end of a pool to the other I can, I just choose not to. That's just me. Plus Charlie was a little high off Heroin at that point, and probably knew he wasn't the best candidate for a swim.

It sounds alot nicer saying 'I don't swim' rather than 'I can swim, but I'm not going to' =]
lover all alone: Jack WINS!invisiblelove on July 16th, 2007 10:36 pm (UTC)
JAS (Jears Appreciation Society)
ROTFL a place for my fellow lovers of the Jears to congregate. WOAH buddy, that man angsts it up so prettily.



Jaaaaaaaack <333 *pets him and feeds him cookies*
the laundry on the hill: ' the 40-year-old surgeon.schmiss on July 16th, 2007 10:52 pm (UTC)
Re: JAS (Jears Appreciation Society)
The thing that gets me is (I think it was this scene) there's a really loud, honking SNIFF in the midst of the jears. I just picture someone in the postproduction studio overdubbing "SNIFF....SNIFF" into the scene. Lolz.
to Infinite, and beyond: [L] Sawyer Potterfinchburg on July 16th, 2007 11:41 pm (UTC)
At first he doesn't, but he also doesn't like any of the alternatives
I think at the beginning it is pretty obvious that he is reluctant about accepting any leadership beyond, "Hey that guy is bleading to death, is there a Doctor around? Oh wait..." But then as things progress he is forced to evaluate not only his position on the island but everyone else's.

If I were Jack, I don't think I would want someone like Locke telling me what to do, or Sawyer... Sayid we know very little about at this point (other than he and Sawyer love to punch eachother). When Jack compares himself to the other possible alpha males on the island he views himself as the best candidate for the role of leader so he starts acting in the manner he feels would be best suited for the greater good.

Shame that "greater good" mentality doesn't end up with him getting the rest of the island to push a really pointy rock off of a cliff so it lands on his own head, but there is still time for a coup. My fingers are crossed.
what do we say to the god of death?: brightinsomniawatcher on July 16th, 2007 11:53 pm (UTC)
Jack reminds me of Ralph from Lord of the Flies, he didn’t really want to be the leader but because he had some many qualities needed in a leader he was ‘chosen’. When they made Jack the leader though they messed him up in a way, Jack can’t really handle pressure can he? I think in my personal opinion they should have maybe had a council, with Sayid (they would be dead without him), Jack (they would be dead without a doctor most of them) and Locke (because he knows nature/hunting/he doesn’t give a damn).

For the second point, considering that most episodes have some reference (title, songs with the novel mentioned, the whole surrealism to it all. That they are looking a way off the Island which is like how Alice is on a constant search for the White Rabbit and we know that *SPOILER ALERT LIKE OMG* like Alice with the flash forward that they are not happy/are still searching/*SPOILER ALERT*) we can be sure that they were rereading the novel when they were writing the script.

amantium_irae: Jack&Aaronamantium_irae on July 17th, 2007 04:00 am (UTC)
Follow the White Rabbit
Dehydrated, sleep-deprived, and chasing hallucinations of his deceased father, the first thing that Jack asks Locke when The Crazy Mofo finds him by the fire is "How are they?", meaning the other losties. That right there tells me why he's the one everyone looks up to for solutions. People ARE sheep and while I won't go into leader endorsment in social dilemmas and whatnot, it's that herd instinct that tells them that Jack will never sacrifice them to the island, that if a guy runs around pulling people out of a burning wreckage, he's probably the one who won't sleep at night thinking about your safety, pouring his own blood into you, etc.

No, I don't think at this point Jack wants to be a leader and he tells us why himself: because he's afraid he'll fail them and won't measure up to the task, that he's not what those 40 people need in a leader. "And yet they all treat you like one."

In between that moment and him smashing the coffin, Jack is trapped once again between fighting his nature because he's been told every one of his insticts is wrong (don't try, you'll fail, sticking up for the little guy isn't worth it) and the more pressing needs of the group. He does what needs to be done because nobody else will (as illustrated with Joanna's drowning.)

Once he's accepted this responsiblity, I don't think Jack particularly enjoys it (Matthew Fox acted the hell out of that rescue scene in the finale this year, you could actually see the weight being liften off his shoulders), but Christian was right. Commitment is what makes him tick. His father never stuck around to see anything through (unless it benefitted his own person): he abandons his marriage, abandons his daughter, forsakens his relationship with his son in the name of some grandiloquent greater good, nothing but codespeak for living vicariously through his son, etc. It's rather common among children of alcoholics to rebel against this type of behavior and become uber-responsible instead.

Jack follows his own White Rabbit into the jungle, which begs the question... actually it begs several questions:

1. Is the island evil or good (we'll go with Smokey as Christian for now because it's been hintted at repeatedly by the writers)? Was it trying to kill Jack with that cliff, or was it just messing with him? It did end up leading him to the water.

2. Was Jack scanned by Smokey in the Pilot, right before we see him open his eye?

There's a very nice cut to flashback where Jack hears the clinking of ice cubes in Christian's glass while he's still in the jungle. It reminded me of Leo McGarry's chilling account of alcoholism on The West Wing: "I like the little things, the way a glass feels in your hand, a good glass, thick with a heavy base. I love the sound an ice cube makes when you drop it from just the right height. Too high and it'll chip when you drop it. Chip the ice and it'll melt too fast in the Scotch." That kind of memory gets imprinted into a kid's psyche forever. As does being told by the most important authority figure in your life that you shouldn't make choices because you'll fail.

I got a very XFile vibe from the scenes in Sydney when I first saw the episode. I kept waiting to see why Christian went to drink himself to death in Australia, what "the incident in the lobby" was all about... I blame Chris Carter if I still have flashes of him sitting in a smokey room with Paik and Widmore.

So... erm... yeah. I really liked this episode. It's the conclusion of Act One of season 1. The group coagulates when Jack tells them to get their shit together, finds means of survival and their first major split happens next episode

Jack can cry on my shoulder anytime, btw. ;)
amantium_irae: addictedamantium_irae on July 17th, 2007 04:10 am (UTC)
Because I forgot... the Wachowski brough Jean Paul Baudrillard into the mainstream with the first Matrix movie and Postmodernism went Hollywood. When Neo is asked to follow the White Rabbit, he's asleep next to a Baudrillard volume and the entire concept of The Matrix is ripped off from his "Simulations (Foreign Agents)". I suppose that fed some Truman Show theories about the island but they better not end the show with "it was all in X's head", 's all I'm saying...
congratulations universe, you win: lost 1miss_universe93 on July 17th, 2007 09:42 am (UTC)
1 - Firstly, if Boone was ever a lifeguard, he must have been really terrible at it, LOL. One thing that always gets me whenever I watch this ep, though, is the way Boone/Ian sounds when he says "I was fine!" as Jack is walking away. Ackkkk. Boone: always tries to do the right thing, always fails.

2 - Sawyer: "Light, comma, sticks. As in those legs of yours." asksls;slajsjdh

3 - As far as I can recall, this is the only time we get to see Jack's mom. I kind of can't believe she'd take her husband's side over her son's when it's clear from the things she says that she knows somewhat that her husband has a drinking problem. I do like the whole allusion to how serious Christian's drinking is, though. "Let one of his friends..."

4 - Christian's hotel room has, like, blinds that open automatically when you push a button. COOL. Oh, and it appears Christian may have been hooked on painkillers as well, as there are a heap of medicine bottles next to his bed, one of which Jack picks up. That's a pretty cool foreshadowing there, if they are painkillers.
(I also like that the hotel doesn't magically face the Harbour Bridge, LOL).

5 - FLASHBACK *AND* ISLAND JEARS! And then some airport Jears! YAY!
amantium_irae: THE SHIRTamantium_irae on July 17th, 2007 04:56 pm (UTC)
1. I think Boone was a lifeguard at one of those swanky Malibu pools. He probably flirted with girls... or guys... or both while sipping expensive booze. But I didn't mind his hapless attempts at being a hero. He was a good kid and unlike the rest of them, at least he TRIED.

3. Margo was written as an Ice Queen. I love Veronica Hammel, I wish they brought her back. Both Jack's mom and pa are perfectly cast as beautiful, screwed up, dysfunctional-type parents.

I kind of can't believe she'd take her husband's side over her son's when it's clear from the things she says that she knows somewhat that her husband has a drinking problem.

Actually, that's typical of co-dependant wives of alcoholics and it's perfectly mirrored in Diane, Kate's mother. I thought it was kind of nice that they paralleled two families, one in the heartland of Iowa and the other one in the ritzy parts of LA like that.
congratulations universe, you win: lost 1miss_universe93 on July 18th, 2007 11:23 am (UTC)
1. LOL I was going to say I bet he was some sort of swanky lifeguard that never actually had to save anybody. I loved Boone though. He was indeed a good kid. I always wonder what he would have done with the whole hatch situation and all of the season 2 storylines if he'd lived. I don't tihnk he would have been content with Jack and Locke being in charge of the hatch/the button. It's interesting to think about.

3. Yeah, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me like that. And that's a great point about both Jack's mom and Kate's mom, and how it's shown that problems like that don't discriminate between rich and not-so-rich and everything. I would have liked to see more of Jack's mom, just so we get a bit more sense of what she's like.
idmenidmen on July 17th, 2007 07:27 pm (UTC)
I don't think Jack ever wanted to be the leader but I think he needs to be the leader and hero - you know, because of his controlfreakfixingcrazy kinda issues?

I think everyone else also needed him to be leader back at the start though, but some of them started to question his leadership pretty soon and Jack didn't seem to want to back down to anyone then (I can think of Locke and Sayid explicitly, Kate, Sawyer and Michael I think to some extent)...
kitti: lostfragilepicture on July 18th, 2007 01:44 pm (UTC)
christian knows it all
so in the end christian shephard (sp?) was damn right!!
lil jack didn't have what it takes to be a leader/hero. he screwed up! and the doc even thinks so too. 'we have to go back!' poor jack for awhile you were really thinking you got everything under control but in the end you sucked.

yeah maybe he was kinda forced into this leader thing but we all have to admid that atleast at some point he enjoyed to be the leader of the losties.

what did we learn from white rabbit? well i think we all learned that christian was right, even if he was drunk. heck drunk peeps & children always say the truth.
congratulations universe, you win: lost 1miss_universe93 on July 22nd, 2007 08:13 am (UTC)
According to the schedule, weren't we supposed to have had the House Of The Rising Sun discussion post on the 18th?. LOL I guess it got lost in translation Harry Potter mania, eh. It could always be bundled with The Moth.
congratulations universe, you win: lost 1miss_universe93 on July 22nd, 2007 08:13 am (UTC)
And that was meant to be a strikethrough on "translation". Whoops.